Evidence 101

EVIDENCE 101...Wherever you go, there you are...

Saturday, June 21, 2014

Fight Club

Yuri responded to my questions from a vast mountainous region, probably setting up his satellite communications right now so he has Wi-Fi in order to keep the discussion rolling. And OldNFO has some things to say without stroking himself out because he is wound up about these topics. Let's get down to brass tax, er....I mean tacks. Fire away YURI...

"Greetings from the Socialist Utopia of CanaDUH. (Ok, Russian Bear, I giggle snorted at that. I am a simple one of cornball humor)
Here's my answers to your questions.
1) Why not just pull everyone out of the Embassy for the time being? 

If Tom Clancy novels are correct, our embassy is the main source of human intelligence on the ground.  Closing them and pulling all of our people out would collapse whatever intelligence network we have developed.  Again this is assuming we have made the effort to build one in the first place.
LOL. My thoughts exactly, Yuri. I have found across the net in many small-minded regions that some Americans of liberal thinking have struck up the question on newspaper commenting boards. Duh...is my response, so I guess we won't get into a heated discussion over that one.

2) Are their oil reserves worth it?
Most Iraqi oil actually goes to Asia and India.  Our interest is in keeping a stable price for oil. If you are asking if it is worth risking lives to keep a stable price for oil, I would say hell-to-the-no.  It was never about oil to begin with.
Hmmm. Yuri, I think we could pry open a can of controversial worms here going off on a tangent line. A tangent line is one straying from the true subject at hand. Why do we care then about all this oil crisis and their oil reserves then? Are we not learning how to be more efficient here in the US. I mean the oil quantities coming out of North Dakota right now are astronomical in comparison to some in Rocky Mountain regions and Texas. There are some small rigs going elsewhere, but the main supplies are west. So, you gives a rat's tail about oil? Blow them up. Shut down their income. Helllerrrrr! I say you have to hit people in the balls. Who says we have to supply the world? Stop shooting them. Capture the oil!
And I agree oil is not the problem, but only collateral damage. Is it about arms control? Religion? Government power?  Why not let them conduct their civil war? Why? Why? Why?
3) What do they know that we don't know or don't get to  know? 
The President learns things the same way we do, by reading it in the paper.  At least, that is what he has told us repeatedly, and boy is he mad about it!
Ok. Good to know. (wiping snorted coffee off myself) Here I thought he was getting his intel from Biden.
4) Do we help Iraq secretly under the table? 
I don't think that's possible at this point. I heard that President Dronestrike is reviewing overhead images and preparing a target list.  Hearing that bit on the radio, brought to mind an old photograph of LBJ doing the same thing during Vietnam. A good leader gets the best people to fix a problem and gets out of their way.  So the man, who is a better speech writer than his speech writer, and a better policy wonk than his policy wonks, probably thinks he's a better military strategist than his military advisors.The same guy who traded 5 baddies for 1 alleged AWOL, has now proclaimed he's sending 300 advisors to the region.  So much for secrecy.
Yes. Vietnam has been a popular comparison to this crisis. America is too big to hide-look at our CO2 emissions-that isn't even doing it. Perhaps we misunderstood the definition of smoke screen. And most all the times we try to do things under the table,  it starts with a few gun trades and ends with troops on the ground. I don't know if we will ever be done with war-really. It seems to be a dinner table topic anymore rather than a historical event. Obama's arrogance is going to be a sinkhole in American government with shockwave effects later on. But 300 advisors, really? Where did he pull that number out of? His ass. It's a cloud front.
5) Another Iran issue?  
Another Clancy reference : Executive Orders - Iraq and Iran merge to become the United Islamic Republic.  Fiction could come true, this time with Syria included as well.
The U.I.R. Sounds like a warm fuzzy government conglomeration. (You, I, Are) Harmony. I loved Tom Clancy and his novels. Loved, loved. He was a brilliant author. R.I.P., Tom Clancy. Jack Ryan is HAWT and where is he now? Oh, yeah. Harrison Ford is relaxing in Wyoming while Chris Pine is the new younger version...another HAWT item. Are all CIA operatives good looking? Only good looking people can get spy shit done? Maybe Tom Clancy was a spy. Perfect cover.
I think there was a song about Iran...right? IRAN FROM YOU...Iran so far away hay hay. Yes, Flock of Seagulls. Maybe it was spelled a little different. And Iran is a girl?

6) Why won't foreign nations get the balls to announce to the world they are asking for our help and throw it out there?
You mean like the Ukraine did?  How has that worked for them so far?  (Sorry, the lack of leadership just pisses me off.)
Oh, Crimea a river. Just Putin it lightly.
7) What do you think our country is in for?  
Pain and anguish, mostly pain.
So vague. Like prickly cactus pain or porcupine pain?

8) Another war?
Well, only the dead have seen the end of war.

Yeah. I can't top that profound statement and not only is it profound, but gruesomely true. Thanks again, Yuri! I look forward to the next discussion.

So, come on, give us your best questions, opinions, and define what is going on here for reals. You don't care? Hmm. Perhaps you should. Life is about to change ugly again just when you thought things were going back to Pleasantville.


Old NFO said...

Nicely done, as always! :-)

Coffeypot said...

I agree that it is the PRICE of oil, not the amount we receive. And I just hope the Joke of a president (not capitalized on purpose as he doesn't deserve it)doesn't do anything else stupid before November or even February when he will be officially gone.

RussianBear said...

I have discovered that the summer uniform for men in Canada is cargo shorts and a tee shirt. For women, it is cargo shorts and a tank top. Lots of pale legs in sandals walking around out here.

I had to respond to this question: Why not let them conduct their civil war?

This is a tempting suggestion. Just Let It Burn (TM) has a certain appeal to it. It is one many Americans would ne willing to abide. The problem I have with JLIB(TM) is we have a moral culpability for the innocents in Iraq. Along the lines of "You Break It, You Buy It."

Bear in mind that this group in Iraq was too extreme for Al Queda. These guys are on a "holy" mission to purify Isalm with bloodshed.

There are stories of entire Christian villages being slaughtered in Syria by these guys. The same is sure to be happening in Iraq. It doesn't sit well with my conscience to give these extremists free reign.

It is our (in)actions that have allowed this to happen. I blame Bush. H.W. to be exact. He should never left an impression with Saddam that we would not intervene if he left his borders. Once he did, the response should have been "kinetic military actions" until an unconditional surrender was obtained. Instead, we left him in place hoping to keep stability in the region.

We have not fought a war, we've played at war. This is not to disparage our military. Our military is constrained by the policy set by civilian oversight - the Commander in Chief.

A more brutal war in the early 90's would have saved many lives, but I doubt the American public would be able to stand for it.

It reminds me of October 8, 1918:

Alvin York: Well I'm as much agin' killin' as ever, sir. But it was this way, Colonel. When I started out, I felt just like you said, but when I hear them machine guns a-goin', and all them fellas are droppin' around me... I figured them guns was killin' hundreds, maybe thousands, and there weren't nothin' anybody could do, but to stop them guns. And that's what I done.

Col. Buxton: Do you mean to tell me that you did it to save lives?

Alvin York: Yes sir, that was why.

It also reminds of the motto, That Others May Live.

Do you disagree that we as American's have a moral culpibility in all this? We chose our leadership, do we not?

-Russian Bear Yuri
Checking in from the Great Socialist Utopia of CanaDuh.

Momma Fargo said...

I am not surprised by the summer uniform. Socialistic style is all the same, correct? Just a little joke. An answer to your questions is not simple. Religion has waged more wars than any other reason to battle. Am I understanding you correctly that you are stating America has a moral obligation? This same government who is morally bankrupt? We have been deemed the great protector of all innocents? We are not Jesus Christ. Is that where our nations stand? Rely on the US to save the day!?! And if so, why can't we fix ourselves first? I do believe in protecting the weak and the innocent. I agree these groups are dangerous. Isn't any enemy of the US? Are they more dangerous because of the nature of their "cleansing by bloodshed" and because it is toward Christians? Slaughtering someone over religion is the oldest trick in the book, but it is also the most senseless to me. However, Christian enemies are very passionate about distinguishing every Christian flame. People have fought on religious grounds for thousands of years. Christians are being slaughtered in many more countries that are deemed hostile, not just in Syria. It is global. Isn't it about time we came to the rescue? What have we been waiting for? And do you think Obama chose 300 because he plans to be as cool as Gerard Butler?

Momma Fargo said...

OldNFO...where are your words of discussion? I know you have some bottled up in there. What are your thoughts, oh wise one?

Coffeypot...LOL. I think it is the price that is important to our interests. We have a long wait until 2016, I am afraid...too long of a wait until his term is over. So much damage can be done by then. Do you agree?

Anonymous said...

The problem with letting this go on (plus what Yuri said about villages being slaughtered), is that these crazies believe in the 12th Caliphate, and want to bring it in RIGHT. NOW. They want to kill everyone. If they control Iraq, Iran is likely to intervene. Then Israel would reasonably get worried, and then Hell might actually break loose.

My solution? Drone the hell out of them. Play whack-a-mole every time Muslim extremism (though, I repeated myself) pops up, and never let them feel comfortable or safe.

RussianBear said...

Am back in the USA. Had to stifle a laugh when the Border Agent asked if I had any weapons in the car. (Like a great socialist utopia would allow a foreigner to carry the means to defend himself.)

"Am I understanding you correctly that you are stating America has a moral obligation? This same government who is morally bankrupt?"

Yes. In this case, we created the instability and allowed this group to ascend to power.

"We have been deemed the great protector of all innocents?"

No. We do not have a moral culpability for the slaughter occurring in Africa and parts of China, in that we did not create a power vacuum there.

"Why can't we fix ourselves first?"

Because parts of our society do not like what America is/stands for, and is intent on destroying what remnant is left. They are working to "fundamentally change America."

"Are they more dangerous because of the nature of their "cleansing by bloodshed" and because it is toward Christians?"

Yes to the first part, not so much to the second. They are executing muslims who do not share their interpretation as well.

"Isn't it about time we came to the rescue? What have we been waiting for?"

We have lost our way. We do not have confidence in the righteousness of our actions. We are waiting for the next Iphone/movie/reality show/"phony scandal" to distract us.

"And do you think Obama chose 300 because he plans to be as cool as Gerard Butler?"

Do you mean the Gerard Butler of "Law Abiding Citizen?" I can only hope that is the case. Like OldNFO said, he's got no sense of OPSEC, or a smidgen of competence, so I expect this action to end badly as well.

"People have fought on religious grounds for thousands of years."

And will continue to do so as long as one of those religions holds onto the idea that apostasy is deserving of death. Until then, there will be many more like Fr. Fran├žois Murad --Martyred June 23, 2013 in Gassanieh, in northern Syria, in the convent of the Custody of the Holy Land.

Momma Fargo said...

So with Obama at the controls of our military operations and the history of his reign as Commander in Chief, how confident are you that we are just going to go secure our embassy? And why aren't we saving Christians and others getting slaughtered in Pakistan? What about Egypt? Isn't it true there is already a holy war going on? How do we choose which war to fight? And is it based upon borders? Are drones the best answer, Anonymous, and why?

Slamdunk said...

Educational stuff MF. Thanks for sharing the conversation. I am just impressed that some people in the US still read. Oh wait, I guess what is printed in the newspaper is not always 100% accurate. So much for me looking for a silver lining.

RussianBear said...

"How confident are you that we are just going to go secure our embassy?"

With the 300, er make that 275 additional people, and the precedent for prisoner swaps(5 + Cash : 1), and defensive actions of embassy personnel (Benghazi) I'd say the President has served them up on a platter, inviting ISIS to help him empty out Guantanamo.

"And why aren't we saving Christians and others getting slaughtered in Pakistan?"

Is it in our National Interest? Pakistan is supposedly our ally in the War on Terror, and we're not supposed to invade our allies, especially those with nuclear weapons. I'd guess the national interest of keeping the region from going nuclear, takes precedence over protecting innocents. Of course, we do have a precedent for invading Pakistan in the bin Laden raid.

"What about Egypt?"

Well, this administration thinks of the Muslim Brotherhood as a community outreach program and as a middle eastern group of freedom fighters. I'd consider them to be terrorists, but hey..one man's terrorist is Obama's freedom fighter, as the saying goes.

"Isn't it true there is already a holy war going on?"

Yes. For over a millennium, holy war has been waged. Western civilization only participates occasionally.

"How do we choose which war to fight?"

Just War theory and our national interest do not always align.

National Interest is the guiding principle. Is it in the interest of America? We were founded with a strong sense of "no foreign entanglements." It is with that cold calculus that we have to justify our nation's military involvement.

We fought the Barbary Wars, not to guarantee the rights of people living under oppressive regimes, but to secure the free passage of shipping on the seas.

The national interest in Iraq is the stable price of oil. The argument has also been made for preventing a safe haven for terrorists. I've also made the argument for our moral culpability in this situation.

"And is it based upon borders?"

Borders have zero meaning with the Zero administration. (See: Ukraine. See also: Southern US Border)

Momma Fargo said...

Bravo, Yuri. Even though I played the advocate, I agree with you!

Anonymous said...

Flock of Seagulls ... I Ran ... LOL!
I always get a chuckle when I stop by - love yer crazy guts!

Bob G. said...

Momma Fargo:
One of the BEST Q&A sessions I've seen in sometime...lol.
Love the play on words (and Flock of Seagulls was a good blast from the past...where did that guy EVER get that "do"?)

Great post.
(lemme work on some "Q" for your "A"...waitaminute, that doesn't sound quite right...)

Roll safe down there, dear.